Curse

CyberNigma · Nov 18, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Perhaps you can propose a better solution to this problem?

I was just reading the thread and checking out both sides of the comment, but your comment perked my interest.

To answer your question: he doesn't have to (and shouldn't have to), he's the consumer. If he doesn't like it he can find another producer. If he doesn't want to then he can stick it out and hope they change it to where he will like it a little bit more than he currently does. There will always be people not satisfied with any product. The real question is always whether enough satisfied customers to keep going (GW so far, WoW, Final Fantasy series, etc) or are the dissatisfied customers outweighing them (Galaxies, Anarchy Online, Turd Tosser 12, etc)..

Paperfly · Nov 18, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Perhaps you can propose a better solution to this problem?

...Yup, get rid of And a Hero Will Lead Them and feed 'foreign' characters their heroes at higher levels to compensate for the missions we don't play through with them. At the moment it's an annoying choke point that doesn't add anything to the game.

It's not the same situation as getting or not getting a Droks run. The latter can teach you game skills by virtue of the fact that you experience a lot of gameplay and enemy variety as you bop around Maguuma, the Crystal Desert, etc. Whereas the primary way of grinding Sunspear points is, as we've established, to kill a lot of bugs.

Two frenzied warriors, two rangers and a monk. Kill, move on to the next patch, kill, zone, repeat. Not a lot of sophisticated play skills being learnt here...

Ninna · Nov 18, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I agree its not the same situation as Propecies jungle

but if you do quest Faction (which takes more time) you travel around in 5-6 zones
* Arkjok Ward
* Barbarous Shore
* Dejarin Estate
* Jahai Bluffs
* Marga Coast
* Sunward Marches

upier · Nov 18, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Go take your dervish/paragon and go to UW/FoW and play the old content... in a new light.
Likewise you can also play your factions characters with new NF-only skills in old maps like Fort Aspenwood.
Sounds like a lot of replay value to me. New content that makes old content feel more refreshing.

nice one dude.
the replay value of NIGHTFALL is a FACTIONS ARENA or uw/fow=a place that came with PROPHECIES.

youre right - sounds like THOSE two chapter had replay value. nightfall on the other hand ....

Oh and welcome to my world Miss

awelcomecomatose · Nov 18, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

You guys are all trying to justify forced grind, rather than facing the fact that it was simply poor game design.

Where else in GW have you actually been forced to grind a title just to progress in the game? Until now, grinding was limited to people who wanted cash, now it's a required part of the game.

I only took one character through NF. Between Sunspear Points and Lightbringer Points, I can't justify doing it more than once.

So 15 minutes of grind made you hate the game?

BoredJoe · Nov 18, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Elite skill capping is pretty much the only reason for me to take the rest of my characters through Nightfall. Even thinking of passing on the Elonian Protector title on any of my characters. With limited storage there's no point trying for any more armour or weapons.

I can imagine Nightfall might be fun for new players but there isn't too much there for me after 1 go. I spend more time in Fort Aspenwood these days. Ahh, who would have thought that someone would look back on Factions with nostalgia.

LiamR · Nov 18, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Temptress

NightFall is so.. horrible.

I hate it. ._.x

....WTF?

I think it is great, well better then factions.

Mavrik · Nov 18, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

I'm lv 16 with sunspear rank 6 and I didn't even need to grind to get so many points. Just did missions and remembered to talk to sunspear scouts every time you enter the world map. I'm not even off the training island yet. Mapped it out though at 20.4% elona cleared. I've still got a lot of quests to do. I'll reach sunspear 7 soon.

gasmaskman · Nov 18, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

uw/fow=a place that came with PROPHECIES.

There's UW/FoW shrines in Factions and Nightfall, too.

Blackhawk · Nov 18, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Think the main problem is a lot us already with Level 20 characters from the previous chapters AND completed NF don't particularly want to ponce about grinding just to get somewhere and are being....whats the word oh yeah FORCED to play the same way over and over again which is where the problem lies.

At least with Factions the 10K Faction was account based so you didnt have to keep grinding the Befriending Kurz/Lux Quest Every Time and I feel that Sunspear Points should be the same, and make a change to the "noob island" quests so that you have to unlock something else before getting access to them.

Lightbringers fine as it is as that doesnt prevent you from progressing and doesnt feel so much of a grind unless you feel the need to increase the size of your e-peen and start bragging about having a higher level which has no impact whatsoever on being able to finish the game.

Kakumei · Nov 18, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Yes, I like the same campaign in the series where mandatory %anything% started, and locked gates begin.

I liked Factions far, far more in terms of replay value than I do Nightfall, since this thread is all about replay value.

I mean, I'll drag the rest of my characters through NF, but when I was pulling all nine of them through Factions I was looking forward to it each and every time. I'm just going through NF for armors and completion because I'm weird and can't bear to have a character that hasn't completed the storyline of each campaign.

Nexus Icon · Nov 18, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

My main character got protector, grandmaster cartographer and all of the elites in Elona.
I did this first to get it out of the way so I could play the game again with one of the new classes or one of my other old characters.
Yet when I try to start Nightfall with these characters, I just end up feeling... meh.
I don't want to cap those elite skills over again having already capped them once.
I don't want to endure the newbie island once again; I had enough trouble forcing my way through it again with my warrior after having done everything there in the preview event.
I don't want to end up spending all of the gold I get on upgrades for my sodding heroes when I've already done it once.
I don't want to spend hours mindlessly grinding out Sunspear promotion points or repeating the same quests when I've already done them once.

Nightfall was incredibly fun first time through, but the prospect of putting myself through it again fills me with dread. And if I wanted to do it properly, and have a complete stable of flexible characters, I'd have to do it TEN times.
When I can barely face doing it once, the realisation that I would be doing it a lot more than that makes me sneer "Yeah, right".
I drop the game and walk away at that point.

So what do I end up doing?
I end up back in the Crystal Desert or Southern Shiverpeaks, helping people out and having fun, just like I always do.
And I can't put my finger on why Tyria has such a pull for me, or why I never tire of it. But as sure as the sun rises in the east, when I get bored of the forced grind, you'll find me relaxing by that tranquil pool in Seeker's Pasage, or attempting the bonus for the new guys in Dunes of Despair, or helping some aspiring 55er get their Shield of Judgment Cap in Mineral Springs.

You won't find me endlessly running bosses on triple green weekends in an effort to get a named weapon that's worse than something I can cobble up from Crystal Desert collectors and mods.
You won't find me grinding out Lightbringer Points in order to make life fighting Margonites in Elona easier. Why bother if there's nothing drawing me back there?
You won't even find me helping newbies through the tougher missions the way I do in Tyria.

Basically, you'll very rarely find me in Elona. Period.

ANet got something wonderfully right, and yet at the same time, terminally wrong with Nightfall.
I wonder if they can fix it?

CyberNigma · Nov 18, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I will hold judgement (and would suggest the same) until the rest of Nightfall is release with this big update coming ina month or so. Don't believe that this is all there is. Nightfall was the only campaign to release without the addition of two elite missions (UW/FoW for 1, Urgoz/Deep for 2), and even the Nightfall-specific title (Sunspear) isn't complete (without farming undead and hoping for no err 7). Give them a chance to finsih releasing the game and then see what the replay is. The elite missions may be pretty good.

Ultimate, though, I think ArenaNet got Lego syndrome with Tyria. They released something so good and massive that people would be content with playing that on and on without the new ones. I know quite a few people still playing Tyria through, some haven't even finished it the first time (casual players). The argument about big zones with only 2 quests in the sure does beat small zones that have 5+ quests in them that require you to re-clear them over and over again. With Tyria for the most part you knew that when you cleared a zone you were pretty much completed everything for that zon e and didn't dread having to go back in and clear what you just cleared over and over.

Anyhow, wait a month or two for this supposed Nightfall update (sounds more like Nightfall release cont'd).

EDIT: Oh, and in comparing the update to Sorrow's Furnace, as I recall the Sorrow's Furnace update was in addition to the completed game (already had elite missions and such). Even on Tyria, though it appears that they ran out of time (the lack of quests past Droknar's Forge). I guess a partial release every 3 months isn't too bad, as that means there's always new content coming along.

jonnybegood · Nov 18, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

you guys are all trying to justify forced grind, rather than facing the fact that it was simply poor game design.

Where else in GW have you actually been forced to grind a title just to progress in the game? Until now, grinding was limited to people who wanted cash, now it's a required part of the game.

I only took one character through NF. Between Sunspear Points and Lightbringer Points, I can't justify doing it more than once.

I played through the game, doing every quest along the way, when I got to the mainland I was just 300 points shy of R7. And I still needed to explore and hunt for less than 30 minutes and I was A OK.

Hellspawn Of D D M · Nov 18, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

You guys are all trying to justify forced grind, rather than facing the fact that it was simply poor game design.

Where else in GW have you actually been forced to grind a title just to progress in the game? Until now, grinding was limited to people who wanted cash, now it's a required part of the game.

I only took one character through NF. Between Sunspear Points and Lightbringer Points, I can't justify doing it more than once.

Hmmm you meantioned that grinding a title is new but infact in Factions you must grind 10,000 Kurz or Luxon faction to get next primary quest which BTW is alot more difficult and time consuming then getting Sunspear in NF...

Str0b0 · Nov 18, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

guys, this was made so theres no chance you advance in the game being lower level then you should be, and get a chance to learn how to use the profession that you are using, since chances are iits a profession that you dont know yet, or you might be completely new to gw, etc.

this was done so you level up your heroes and learn how to use them before you go into more complicated areas

its not bad game design, its a forced way to level up yourself and heroes. also a way to make noobs less noobish when they are forced to learn some basics

Grind = Bad Game Design. If it's your first time through then gravy. Do the quests, do the leveling but if this is your second time through do you honestly want to bother with, what according to your reasoning, amounts to a massive tutorial that you can't even opt out of? Justify it however you like but it was a bad idea to make titles mandatory for advancement. I could care less about a title under my name and until now all titles have been voluntary, fun sort of things, something to shoot for after you had played through. Now it's a chore. I'm seriously not even bothering to finish Nightfall because of it. I got my Dervish far enough along to where he can take the tyria and cantha quests and I'm done. I more or less wasted 120 bucks on two games, one for each account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellspawn Of D D M

Hmmm you meantioned that grinding a title is new but infact in Factions you must grind 10,000 Kurz or Luxon faction to get next primary quest which BTW is alot more difficult and time consuming then getting Sunspear in NF...

I mean grinding that 10,000 faction in Factions was tedious enough, but at least that was across all characters on an account. I can't be bothered to grind 7 ranks in a title with 16 characters.

I honestly think they instituted that system to add more hours of play time to a game that they feared was going to be too short, like Factions. What we end up with is a fantastic product that is crippled by aggravating grind. I mean I really wanted to kill Abbadon and finish out but damn at the grind. I might, one day in the distant future, get bored enough to actually finish it but until that day comes I'd rather play the first two chapters, even with all their problems, than be forced to grind in a game that promised me I wouldn't have to.

upier · Nov 18, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasmaskman

There's UW/FoW shrines in Factions and Nightfall, too.

yeah and uw/fow can actually be considered NEW end-game content for c2 and c3 IF you own only one of those chapters. but if you you are a loyal customer - youre just out of luck - no NEW end-game content.

Antheus · Nov 18, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

A little note on the grind. After getting "And a hero shall lead them" on 5 characters, I can confirm that only by doing the necessary quests, plus 2 of the side quests, and talking to every single priest you come along, will net you the needed sunspear points. It takes 2 hours, which is the time it takes to do the missions in the first place (The great escape, 2 Koss quests, and the 3 base building quests). If you talk to every priest you come across while doing these quests, you'll have enough if you do not run past mobs.

The second important point here is, that many are getting done with the game. It's old, it doesn't offer any new challenges. It's time to move on. This happens to every single game single-player on online. Everyone playing from start has been with the game for 18 months. That's a long long time for an MMO. Average time people stick with games is 6-9 months.

Lastly, for many Tyria (or Factions) holds special apeal, since it's comparably easy, and more importantly, since it was the first game. Just like everyone loved their first MMO best, no expansion has ever captured that spirit that original game had.

Simply put, there's nothing wrong with the game. Majority of complaints are completely natural and expected in a game that's aproaching 2 year anniversary.

GW has always lacked PvE end-game content. The only content there was was farming for FoW. The other was added later, namely the titles. All of these are strictly grind. While it's of course possible to do all the quests in FoW, as well as the Titan quests, they aren't repeatable either. One shot deal at a proven concept. Masters quests are comparable to Titan quests in Tyria.

In reality, the 10,000 faction needed in Factions took longer to collect than it does to reach the rank in NF. It also required more quests (around 7 in NF, at least 15 in Factions). And while it was shared among characters, that in itself enforced strict roadblock (get all characters to HzH, repeating those missions before without being able to advance on any character).

LONGA · Nov 18, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Well go skill capping with your old chars. good way to kill stuff for points

justadude · Nov 18, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

For me the replay value will halt with the Gate of Madness mission. I do not think I will bring many characters through such a flawed mission. The frustration level and annoyance caused by that mission are more than I want to deal with. If I really want a green I will either buy it or take my dervish through Abaddon again after buying a book. Other than that I will most likely explore Elona with a few chars

One question though, what was Abaddon in Nightfall when Shiro is the boss to beat?